"Southwestern Baptist, one of the nation's largest Southern Baptist seminaries, is introducing a new academic program in homemaking as part of an effort to establish what its president calls biblical family and gender roles. "It will offer a bachelor of arts in humanities degree with a 23-hour concentration in homemaking. The program is only open to women. "Seminary officials say the main focus of the courses is on hospitality in the home – teaching women interior design as well as how to sew and cook. Women also study children's spiritual, physical and emotional development." 
So did you guys see this story last week? I didn't. But Sandi did, so here I am, totally getting a post out of something she already posted about....
But I'm genuinely interested in what you girls think about this. Here's a big quote from the article:
9 months ago
8 comments:
Shannon, this is long, sorry. I have been thinking about this for a several days now, as I have seen on numerous message boards, blogs, websites articles, comments, etc. about this.
What gets me thinking about this coursework, is not even that there is such a degree. I really am neither here nor there on the topic. If you have the money to pay, go for it. I know that it has been said that you go to trade school to learn a trade in order to get a job and college to get educated, but I can say, I wouldn't be teaching at a university had I not had a college degree, more than one degree to be specific. And my dh wouldn't be a pastor, had he not earned a degree (now two, and beginning a third) because even in vocational ministry degrees are important, not just for the keep get your resume from being thrown in the trash can by a church's pastoral search team.
And like you, Shannon, I am a pastor's wife. And while some think 'music' is an 'easy' degree with no job options, I have found much-needed employment everywhere we have lived because I have degrees, as well as job experience, but the degree mattered. Thankfully, I can work part-time and make a nice salary to support my pastor-hubby. So he doesn't have to get an additional job, but has time to be a husband (in every sense of the word) and to actually spend time with his family, as opposed to working two jobs to make ends meet and taking care of other families and not being able to take care of his own. So, I see my working as ministry to my family and to my husband, as well as the church he pastors, as many pastors' wives do.
And having followed the discussion on www.dennyburk.com about this topic, I realize that Complementarians don't come out and say that woman shouldn't work, but for me (I don't claim to be complementarian or egalitarian, btw) I feel as if this is a way to somehow say exactly that to me, even indirectly, and to other Christian woman who work.
I saw a transcript of an interview with Dr. Patterson and he stated that people who think they 'have' to live off of two incomes are 'ignorant'. I would LOVE for him to come and live in metro Denver, with children, on a staff pastor's salary and effectively do it on one income here. And my dh and I are frugal, too (budget for basics only--no retirement,college fund, gifts, travel, etc.)--just the basics, use coupons everytime I shop, air drying clothes in the summertime, rarely go out to eat, minimal datenights (but paying for lots of childcare for church functions that we each have to be at b/c he is the pastor and I am the pw and would like to be involved, or am required to attend), etc.
So, I work to 'minister' to my minister and take some of the stress off of him. It is like a slap in the face for him to make this sort of assumptions that I am 'ignorant'.....b/c we need my income as much as my dh's just to stay afloat, oh and we are debt-free other than our mortgage.
This is his response to the question asked about two incomes
Q: Many people would say that in this day and age the economic reality is that two incomes are needed especially for blue collar households.
A: "Well, I'm sorry to say this but people who say that are ignorant. The fact is that we have discovered that those two income households actually have a harder time by the time they pay child support and by the time they pay for wardrobes for work and the extra automobile and the time they spend eating out ... once your get through all of that our argument is nine times out of 10 that you don't come out any better ... One of the things we are doing in the course is helping people find out how they can survive and survive very well on a single income."
Frankly, I don't buy clothes to work in (the perk of working part-time as an adjunct faculty, and working from home teaching piano/voice), we rarely eat out, I don't pay for childcare, as we each watch the kids while the other works, etc. So......
But getting back to the degree. I really have no problem with it personally. You pay for education, take whatever classes you want. I really mean that, you should study what interests you, I did and continue to do so. However, if I were to discuss concerns that I have with this they would be:
#1. the cost-Seminary is EXPENSIVE and let's face it pastors do not get paid the equivalent of other people with similar schooling, at least most pastors don't. And most seminaries don't have subsidized tuition as SBC seminaries do for 'their own'. I think this is great, but the reality is that most pastor's don't get this sort of break, neither do females students pursuing a seminary education. (honestly, this is one reason why I went to a state school for my master's degree, b/c the MM was basically the same at seminary and state school, except for a few Bible classes. And I was 'this close' to attending SWBTS in 1997. At a state school the bulk of my degree was paid for b/c I had an assistantship at the state school that was not available at seminary. To me this was God's provision.)
Therefore, even though the new degree at SWBTS is not specifically for pw's, many will pursue it, as well as woman desiring to be a SAHM. And quiet honestly, I wonder how they will afford it. I know I paid for my education, myself, through loans, working during school and scholarships. And am now working to put my dh through seminary, and soon both of us, as we pursue our doctorate degrees.
However, I know pastors who come out of seminary with debt upwards of $20,000-$40,000. Now, what about these pw's and other SAHM's paying for a degree (and possibly helping pay off their dh's degree, too), that quiet honestly, could wind up having no way of getting a job, earning much more than minimum wage (similiar to what you stated in your blog) to pay for it? Or God forbid, if something happens to their dh's? Or if their dh's decide to plant a church (I know many pw's who work FT so their dh's can plant a church and give himself FT to the work of the ministry)? Some could say, 'oh you are asking too many what-if questions.' But, I think we have to plan for the future, and of course, trust God.
I truly don't think this degree is bad. But I do think that as Chrisitian woman, we should be teaching/mentoring/training women in the church,as Titus states.
#2. Why are we not training up women in the church in the area of homemaking, being a bibilical wife, mentoring, etc.? In essence doing what we are called to do in Titus? Why don't we just DO IT? Why do we always wait for it to b be a 'formal church-sponsored program/ministry' as opposed to just taking the reigns and asking younger women, "Can I teach you how to cook? Come over to my hosue, I will help you." Or, "Do you need mentor? I realize it will be a time commitment on both our parts, but I am game, if you are." etc.
As well, to me, what it indirectly states about women who do work, in stating that people have forgotten what 'biblical womanhood' is all about is, once again, debating SAHM= biblical womanhood, working wife/mom=unbiblical womanhood. I just don't agree with that. I for one, can name fewer than 10 pw's, who I know personally, that don't work outside of the home out of financial necessity. As stated, I am one of them. It seems like 'traditional' is not just about theological perspectives anymore, but about decisions that, quiet honestly, should be left up to the husband and wife to decide. I used to think dh and I were traditional in the theological sense, but if the definition has changed to mean, godly, bibilcal woman stay-at-home, then I guess I am not.
3. Then this takes me to the area of spirtual headship. Personally, in our home it has nothing to do with who cleans the home or takes care of the kids. Even has little to do with who begins a spiritual discussion, but more to do with who sets the spiritual tone of the home, who leads by example, who is a servant to all--my husband. However, we are a team in all things. Because I know dh loves me as Christ loves the church, he has never had to 'pull rank' in re: to submission....it is not a four letter word in our home. (We had a sermon on it this week at www.bethanyefree.org under resources, then sermons in MP3). Submission is a good thing at least in the way my dh and I believe the definition to be.
To me, it just seems this denomination, the denomination of my heritage, is making subtle and overt statements about what exactly is and is not biblical manhood and womanhood. It seems that while the degree is neither here nor there with me, the other communications and statments, appear to be brewing the battle of WM versus SAHM and quiet honestly, we need to be unified as Christians, but specifically, Christian woman. I blogged about this a long time ago, but it is at www.myspace.com/mezzogirl1974.
Why can't we just support moms and wives who are like us and those who are not like us, as long as we are unified in Christ? I, personally, feel that, once again, I am being told I am less godly and Chirst-like for working and not being the one to always be with my kids, cook, clean, and bad b/c I bring home part of the paycheck.
I realize this is probably taking the discussion in another direction than, perhaps, you intened, but I have refrained myself from commenting elsehwere, so as to read some more interviews and articles about this. Again, the degree is not bad, but I know, like myself, others feel that there is much more to this than just a new degree at this institution.
I meant to type that degrees are important for my pastor-husband 'not just for the knowledge but to keep your resume from being thrown in the trash by pastoral search teams'. Sorry for the typo.
OK, Jada, you got me going again! I went to Denny's blog, and left this:
OK, another female voice here…I’ve been very interested in this whole discussion. First of all, let me say I have no problem with the degree itself; anyone who wants to pursue this should with gusto. However, as a homemaker and a former pastor’s wife, I have a few concerns:
None of the stuff the degree teaches is bad. In fact, it sums up a lot of what I do every day, what I LOVE to do every day. But as somebody who got a general studies degree, who still regrets the fact that she didn’t get a degree that would lead to part-time work options that a stay-at-home mom could do and still make a decent salary (think nurse or architect vs. working at the gym as a babysitter), it kinda burns me up. I realize that’s about me personally, but shouldn’t we encourage wisdom? This degree might work if a girl’s going to marry a guy who is going to be a doctor or a lawyer, but gals who marry pastors typically need to be able to help out financially a bit, especially once the kiddos are all in school.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense to me is that it’s an undergrad degree. That means you sign up for this track, typically, when you’re 18 years old, fresh out of high school. Or say you wait a few years to decide on a major. OK, you’re 20. Most of my girlfriends didn’t even marry until a few years after they graduated from college. In today’s society, how can you even know if you’re going to be a homemaker at 18 or 20?
And, like Steve, I have concerns that this came so quickly on the heels of what happened with Sherri Klouda. I just feel that her situation was handled poorly, and am concerned about the more subtle statement this makes when it gets in the hands of the media; take this from an interview Patterson did with Reuters (interviewer was Ed Stoddard, I found this at http://www.topix.net/content/reuters/2007/08
/texas-baptist-seminary-offers-homemaking
-course):
Q: Many people would say that in this day and age the economic reality is that two incomes are needed especially for blue collar households.
A: “Well, I’m sorry to say this but people who say that are ignorant. The fact is that we have discovered that those two income households actually have a harder time by the time they pay child support and by the time they pay for wardrobes for work and the extra automobile and the time they spend eating out … once your get through all of that our argument is nine times out of 10 that you don’t come out any better … One of the things we are doing in the course is helping people find out how they can survive and survive very well on a single income.”
Can we please not throw around words like ignorant when we’re dealing with these issues? There are some families in which both parents legitimately have to work in order to make ends meet. I’m not talking about families in which both parents work and have big cars, and have huge homes, and eat out a lot. I’m talking about families who truly need the income from both parents, who need this to make ends meet. Take my family, for example, once we have to look at things like savings for retirement, and college tuition for our daughters in years to come.
For the record, I am a strong complementarian, and would never be comfortable with a woman as pastor; I truly believe the more subtle statements being made by Southwestern lately aren’t things that necessarily have anything to do with whether one believes a woman should preach or not. They are more directed toward what women do every day, to choices families make about everyday life. That’s my concern…
I'm writing books here girls! Rach has another viewpoint, but I don't want to lift her stuff off of Denny's blog without her permission, and I don't want her statements to be out of context... So go visit Denny's blog if you want different views!
www.dennyburk.com
i just think it is a valid degree worthy of honor if that is what someone chooses to do...gammy (my grandmother) was married when she went off to seminary with twodad and she took many classes thought i don't think she ever declared a major...it might have been helpful since she was already married with one baby and one on the way to have the option of some of these classes, since her own mother died when gammy was only 6 and she had little training as a mother/wife...also i have some frinds up in KY who have 3 and 1 on the way...karen might really benefit from some of the classes offered since she is so far away from her parents...from what i understand some people's churches contribute to their pastors' higher education and even their wives pursuits in seminary...i know our church does...many homemakers found successful businesses within the sphere of their chosen occupation (party planner, childcare provider, baker, caterer, etc.)...i dunno i think if the university isn't losing money offering the course, then it can't hurt to give people who do already know their lifelong job to be wife and mother to study with in their chosen profession
and if you wanna quote me from D's blog that is fine...i don't really remember what i said...i do remember being a bit put off that so many men responded so quickly with seemingly flimsy arguments...but what do i know?
Rae, I don't think it's not worthy of honor. Not at all. I just wonder at the wisdom of having 18 year olds choose this major, when they don't even know if they're going to marry. And again, not encouraging pastor's wives to pursue degrees that would help out financially. I know lots of women with home-based businesses also, but those don't provide insurance, and with a great job (think nursing), most of these women could make in one 12-hour shift what they make working for 2 weeks from home. I'm just sayin...
PS, Rae (I still haven't figured out how to post on your blog!) - I hope house hunting in Houston is very successful! I just might see a girls weekend trip to Houston in all of our future... ;o)
OK, girls, I think I've come to some sort of conclusion about this thing. I'm not sure why it's eating at me so much, so I'm going to just let it go... We won't ever encourage my girls to pursue this degree (more on that below). But if other women do, that's their choice. Here's something else I left on Denny's blog:
Denny, that’s a great point. I disagree with the degree practically, not in principle. I just wonder at the wisdom of it. I know that we’ll encourage our daughters, if they want to pursue a liberal arts degree, to have a path in mind, to have a vocation in mind at the end of the path, not just to count on the fact that they’ll get married and have babies one day.
You’re right, too, about everybody getting too worked up about it…it is only 23 hours of a humanities degree, not a “cookie baking” degree, as I’ve heard some put it. Another gal mused about it, “What in the weird?” - I guess that’s more of what I’m feeling…
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